Unsurprisingly, when I wrote an article about how bad the HUB was, some HUB divers threw a paddy and yelled about how it WAS good. That was the extent of it in most cases, with the main arguments boiling down to "I own one, it hasn't gone wrong, it's very comfortable" and totally ignoring the fact that the problem with the HUB isn't that it's not comfortable or that it inevitably goes wrong, but that it's more liable to go wrong than normal gear, non-standard in awkward and potentially dangerous ways, and that there are better solutions to every one of the things the HUB claims to fix.
However, in the interests of fairness, I feel obliged to publish the HUB point of view, and also to offer my comments. This article originally appeared on DiverNet, and was one of the more thorough criticisms leveled at my article. Their comments are in red, and are reproduced 100% faithfully. My comments are in black.
There's a lot of misinformation going around. People are making up stuff about the HUB and posting it as fact. Some very clever people are perhaps in fear of "change" and making up reasons why the HUB isnt any good. They're wrong. Don't trust anyone's opinion who hasn't actually USED a HUB because there seems to be a lot of misinformation permeating the diving community about this, as well as other new products and technologies. Only 5 years ago, the same people were telling you not to use a Computer because it wasnt as reliable as Tables. Times change, and diving technology moves on.
I own a HUB. Now, contrary to what you might think, I'm not going to tell you how wonderful it is. Because, it does indeed have its faults. But certainly not the ones that are being complained about by the others who answered your question.
I'll do my best to explain what "facts" are fabricated... and then I'll tell you what really IS wrong with the HUB.. so you can make up your own mind with a few extra datapoints of information. *I DO NOT WORK FOR MARES, NOR DO I HAVE ANY BIAS HERE* (other than the fact that I actually have USED a HUB!)
The following points are taken from the message posted by Aquabin but mainly, his link to Dominic Humphries hugely misinformed web site. I wouldnt be surprised if he works for a competitor to Mares because he obviously doesnt know what he's talking about and seems to be on a deliberate missing to deliver false or inaccurate data.
Sadly, I don't work for a dive company. But hey, if anyone wants me..?
1. He says such dumb things like, if there's a reg fault on your HUB AvantGarde, you need to get a new computer.
No, sorry, I don't. I say that if a single thing fails on your HUB, you send in the whole HUB for repairs. That's a gross misrepresentation.
What tosh. The HUB doesnt have a computer built in (no, not even the AvantGarde!). You use whatever computer you fancy, and of course, if you choose to fit a computer onto the HUB's 1st stage, you can move it just as easily as you can move it from any other 1st stage. I own a VYTEC with Transponder. I also use a Stinger as a backup. If I choose to move the Vytec's transponder, it takes mere seconds - exactly the same time it takes to move it to any other 1st stage on any regulator set.
2. He says that if there is a regulator fault you need a whole new BCD as well as new regulator. Tosh. If you have a regulator fault, you can easily unscrew the regulator from its manifold and screw in a new one. If you so choose, you theoretically dont even need to use a Mares one.. although thatd probably be ideal.. but there's no reason why you can't screw in any other regulator if you so choose. Same with the Octopus. You have the same capability mix and match regulators as you do with any other 1st stage.
Again, this is misrepresentation. I never said anything about buying new gear. I said that if part of the HUB broke, you had to send in the HUB for repairs. Whereas if a diver with normal equipment suffers a problem with a piece of gear, he can send in that one piece of gear and continue using the rest.
3. The only difference between a HUB and a HUB AvantGarde is, (a) The Integrated Weight system, and (b) the Airlock (air powered tank-band tightening system). There is no computer or console on ANY HUB and you use what you choose and either use them separate from the HUB, or screw them in, just like you would on any other bcd or 1st stage. And they can be removed just as easily as on any other bcd!
Fine. But I don't claim anything else. So what's the point here?
4. He says if you have a fault on any other regulator in the world, you just send it in and get it repaired. Whereas on the HUB he says you need to send the entire HUB in. Tosh. You simply unscrew the regulator, and send it in, just like on any other regulator in the world. In fact, the regulator in the HUB is a standard Mares one (an Orbiter 16) which you can probably find in any dive centre in the world, and is an extremely popular and capable reg.
If the DV on a HUB is what's broken, then yes, you could unscrew the DV and send it in for repairs whilst using a replacement DV. But if it's a first stage problem, or a burst hose inside the HUB's guts, or a BCD problem... then the whole HUB is going in for repairs, and that's that. You loose your whole aqualung, not just part.
This person seems to be confusing a regulator and a DV. The DV on a HUB is standard, true. But a regulator is the complete piece of breathing apparatus, first stage included. The HUB's regulator is unique to the HUB, you can not replace it with a standard regulator. A DV yes, the whole regulator, no.
Oh, and one other thing - if CE certification matters to you, which it DOES if you're a commercial operator, and MIGHT in any insurance claim you may be involved in, there's a bit in the HUB manual you need to bear in mind: "The HUB has been certified by the EC as a complete scuba unit. The use of any other regulator or octopus as part of the HUB voids the EC certification, even if that regulator is EC certified!" - so even if it is just the DV that's gone wrong, think long and hard about using a different one.
5. Then he complains about the neat way the Octopus is stowed in a bright yellow velcro pocket with pull tab on it. Firstly, this to me feels much safer than letting it dangle or trail behind you
Yes, he damn well does. And I'll even agree that a pocketed octopus might be considered better than an octopus floating around freely. But I specifically say in the article that the octopus should NOT be allowed to dangle, but secured firmly in place. An octopus on a QR clip is much, much better than a pocketed one.
(like most divers seem to do!). If you so choose, you can leave your Octopus dangling. No one forces you to stow it in its pocket. Or, of course, you can clip it to a D ring on the front of your bcd just like many other divers do. The HUB isnt a religion. You can do what you want with the equipment. It definitely feels neater
So buy a HUB and then don't use it as a HUB is the advice, folks. Alternatively, don't buy a HUB, and save yourself the effort.
And please note the continual use this person makes of how a piece of equipment FEELS rather than how practical it is. An octopus that feels neat but is not accessible is not a better setup than an octopus that is instantly accessible but not neat. "Form over function" is not a valid criteria for life-preserving equipment. How would you like to be treated for heart attack with a defibrillator powered by an AA battery, on the grounds that it felt less uncomfortable than the nasty big voltage the current units use?
and more accessible stowed in the pocket where you can quickly find it, but nothing forces you to leave it in there. Put it where you fancy that other divers in need of air will find it the easiest. Want it on your chest, on a clip? fine. Want it in its specially marked pocket where you can reach it easiest, also fine.
6. He says that in an Out Of Air emergency you'll need to find it as soon as possible to give it to your buddy. I personally prefer to know its safely stowed in its velcro pocket and can reach for it intuitively and give it to my Airless buddy immediately. Somehow he seems to think its harder to reach, or slower to access whereas I'd say it was the opposite. And as mentioned in 5, if you really want it clipped to your D ring, you can do that too.
7. Then he complains about the HUB Avantgardes integrated weights. In my opinion, you can make the same pros and cons of ANY and ALL integrated weight systems. At least the HUB Avantgarde's weight system is reliable and mechanical so the weights arent going to fall out accidentally (like some other weight systems ive seen that rely on velcro to keep them in). No one's going to pull your weights off accidentally, as it has to be a deliberate act.
Another misrepresentation. The fault I highlight is that the octopus is accessed by grabbing a toggle on the side of the HUB, and the integrated weights are released by grabbing a toggle on the side of the HUB. A panicking diver clawing at a HUB for a toggle has a high chance of pulling the wrong thing out. This is not a flaw of the weight system, it's a flaw of the Octopus system.
As anyone who reads my posts regularly knows, I'm a fan of both weight harnesses AND integrated weights. This is another attack on an argument I'm not making
Incidentally, whatever integrated weight system you use, you HAVE to explain to your buddy and divemaster what system it is and show them so they will know how to use it in an emergency, or, if you choose not to use the integrated weights, then dont use them. Use a weight belt if you fancy (or buy the regular HUB that doesnt have integrated weights). Nothing forces you to use the HUB's integrated weights if you dont want to. And the system used is at least as good as every other manufacturer's integrated weight systems. I'm personally in two minds as to whether to use integrated weights. I certainly like the convenience and neatness of it, but, i dont like how heavy out of water the bcd, when loaded with its weights, is.
Note the way this person says that on any dive, you have to explain to your buddy and the divemaster. This implies this person only does guided dives in tropical waters. I've nothing against low-skilled holiday divers per se, but I do object to somebody incapable of diving without a support diver telling me they know better than I do. I've never explained anything about my gear to a divemaster in my life, and I've never been lead around a site by one either. I'm capable of diving without my hand being held, thank you very much.
8. He says that the pneumatic deflator valves are a problem and you cant use them manually.
No I don't. That's not even misrepresentation, it's pure fantasy. I'm well aware of the manual dumps on the HUB. The problem I have is with using pneumatic power to operate dumps, as this is an over-complicated system more likely to fail than a manual dump.
Thats not true. The HUB has two deflator valves (operated pneumatically), and two manual dump valves. The Mares pneumatic inflator/deflator system is excellent and works when you are at practically any angle. You dont have an inflator/deflator control that you need to hold upright, and you dont need to be vertical to dump air.. and its now standard fitment on virtually all new Mares & Dacor BCD's. They're excellent and work extremely well! And, if you want to manually dump, there are two dump valves, one at the top and one at the bottom that either you or your buddy can easily access.
Doesn't address the fact that it's a non-standard system that is virtually impossible to use for a CBL. Once again- I'm sure it works beautifully well. When it works. When the excrement hits the rotating air current generator, that's a totally different situation, and one that this person has very clearly never considered.
7. He says you cant put the Console where you want it so you can see it.
No I don't. I do mention that the manual requires the console to be put into the pocket, where it can't be seen. But that's all I say.
Tosh again. You can put the console whereever you want. It comes out of the left pocket and can be positioned anywhere you fancy. I have mine directly in front of me at all times so I can look down whenever I want to see it. The only difference is that the hose for the console comes out from the side instead of from the top. Makes no difference in practical use, and its certainly much neater.
Once again, this person is advocating buying a HUB and then configuring it like a normal piece of dive gear, defeating the whole reason for having the HUB to start with.
8. Re: Airlock, the tank band tightener. He says after youve tightened your tank band with this, you will worry the entire dive about whether the hose comes loose or is damaged, thus letting your tank slip out. Tosh again. Once tightened, it no longer needs air to retain the tight fit. You could even disconnect the air supply to the Airlock and itd still hold, up until you release it with the lever. The Airlock is indeed a gimmick. A cool one.. but unnecessary.
No, I said that having a hose just to tighten your camband was adding failure points to your rig and increased the likelihood of a problem occurring. I don't say that the means the camband will come undone.
You will note the admission that it's "cool, but unnecessary" - sums up the HUB nicely, that one.
In short, I've never read more tosh and uninformed comments about a product as I have about the HUB!
Then perhaps you should try reading what's actually written.
Anyway, as I mentioned, im not completely happy with my HUB Avantgarde, and it does indeed have some faults, although none are major.. but they're all are worth considering.
1. Its heavy. All that extra technology and integration widgetry adds extra weight. In particular, the "Airlock" air powered tank band tightener, is made of metal and adds a pound or so.
Yes. And the HUB is aimed at the kind of diver who flies to exotic places to dive.. bit of a silly thing to do, making it so heavy, wasn't it?
On the regular HUB, it doesnt have this.. so that may actually be an advantage. Of course, when you dive, you'll need to be properly weighted for neutral buoyancy, and any additional weight thats part of the HUB is less weight that you'll need on your weightbelt or integrated weights... so underwater it ends up the same weight. But on dry land, and in your suitcase, the HUB is definitely a few pounds heavier than a regular BCD, but perhaps not as heavy as some technical bcds. Also, for travelling, if you have a separate bcd and reg set, you can stow them separately to maximise space in your suitcase... whereas on the HUB theyre always attached together which means a less flexible packing arrangement... but not by much.
2. Regulator positioning. The primary 2nd stage comes out of a pocket on your right, instead of over your shoulder. For me, this was not a comfortable angle in my mouth... and I felt it tugged to the downwards to the right. The addition of a Swivel Joint on the regulator makes this a lot less of a problem, but the problem doesnt go away entirely and I found myself adjusting the swivel during a dive. And the swivel adds a few ounces of extra weight, which might be noticed. It has been correctly mentioned that a swivel adds an additional point for potential unreliability to the system.
They admit that the regulator is uncomfortable, even WITH the swivel added, and they even note that the whole thing is more likely to fail. This isn't even the "It might be crap, but it's comfortable" argument. This is, pure and simple, "It's crap, it's uncomfortable, but I own so, so it's fine."
3. Like with most 1st stages, there are only two spare HP ports. The HUB has one in the left pocket, for you to attach the console, and one on the 1st stage at the top. I have my little scubapro console plugged into the pocket socket, and thus the only place left for me to attach the Vytec's transponder is on top of the 1st stage, where it sometimes hits my head during a dive. I havnt found a way around this yet, but I probably will. (I naturally decided against the unsafe solution of relying solely upon the transponder placed in the pocket and not do with a backup console)... of course, I could have had the console plugged in at the top of the 1st stage, with a hose coming down, just like any normal diver... but since the rest of the HUB is externally hoseless, I found this to be a less than ideal solution... (but, if I did it this way, itd certainly work just like any other dive gear). I could also turn the 1st stage upside down, with a bit of fiddling, so the transponder would be downwards. I havnt tried either yet.
Inflexible hose routing is another point I raise against the HUB. This person is suffering from it, yet still refuses to acknowledge it as a problem.
I shall make no mention of the way they've spent out huge amounts of money on the pointless gimmick of AI, beyond to point out the irony that it doesn't work with the expensive pointless gimmick that is the HUB.
Whats right with it?
1. Its literally just one easy package. Easy to transport. Easy to setup. Easy to use.
2. Its got everything built in (except computer, and console).. both of which you can easily add (and should!)
3. Its extremely neat both topside, and underwater. And when you have used it a bit, everything feels natural and comes to hand very easily. Have you ever dropped your regulator and had to tip over, fumbling to find it? Cant happen when the reg is right there emanating from your pocket.
No. I have, however, on several occasions gracefully swept my arm around to reclaim my DV. This person is obviously too poorly trained to do a simple regulator retrieval, and is therefore obviously going to be happy with a system that hides their poor standard.
A long hosed primary DV, incidentally, is similarly exempt from being lost when let go.
4. No trailing hoses. This is good for reliability since they cant, and wont snag on rocks, coral, or get tangled in any way. Nor will you drag any hoses on the bottom if you swim too deep or your buoyancy isnt perfect. The number of times I've seen divers trailing their Octopus behind them, and it snags on a rock and the diver gets stuck.. is amazing.
I'll say. And yet it could be fixed with about £5 spent on some clips. No need to scrap everything they own and buy a HUB to fix this problem.
Also, please note the philosophy espoused here: "you won't get tangled up on the reef if you're crap at missing the bottom" - so instead of learning how to control your buoyancy, just buy a HUB! Crash into the reef at your leisure, safe in the knowledge your hoses won't get caught in all the nasty, inconvenient, sticking-out coral.
The HUB Avantgarde is the same as the HUB with only two differences.. well, three if you include a different colour scheme. 1. It has the Airlock tank band tightener (which adds weight), and 2. It has the integrated weight system. If you dont need either the integrated weights, or the airlock, then get the HUB.. its cheaper and, more importantly, lighter.
Its been said that the HUB is extremely expensive. But if you add up the cost of a high end bcd, with regulator and 1st stage.. and integrated weights etc.. then its about the same, perhaps even a little cheaper. Discounts can be had on any diving equipment if you know where to look, and the same is as true for the HUB as for any separate bcd and regulator.
This is true. I've never yet seen the HUB for sale anywhere that didn't have it heavily reduced. Most divers are intelligent enough not to buy the stupid thing, so dive shops have to reduce it to sell it.
Also, note the "high-end" part - very few high-end products are worth buying. As serious divers know, "high-end" tends to mean "loaded down with stupid gadgets" - it's the mid-range stuff that's good quality but with minimal silly extras that's worth buying.
So...
Would I recommend you to buy one?
Well... only you can decide that. Its definitely not perfect.. but then, the same is true for many other diving products... so the best thing is to try it and see if you like it. Its definitely not the Devil's Spawn, as some would have you believe. Its a perfectly reasonable attempt at furthering the technology, packaging and ease of use of dive gear for the recreational diver.
As mentioned, im not entirely happy with my HUB.. and my next purchase is probably another BCD and Regulator set thats lighter (you can tell that weight is my bugbear). Possibly my next bcd will be the up and coming Mares Morphos (or whatever its called), that, rumour has it, is good for travelling (lightweight and folds up into a little package), and as for a reg... im after lightweight, so it'll prolly be one of the titanium offerings from scubapro or atomic aquatics.
And that tells you everything you need to know. A titanium regulator. Even the people who make them have admitted (off the record) that these are built for one target group only - the people who have to buy the most expensive gear they can. Titanium regs are massively expensive, give no improvement in performance, and are bought only by people with more money than sense.
This person ALSO uses Nitrox with their HUB, for which it is not rated. Gives you a lot of faith in this person's judgement, doesn't it?
The author of this critique is also a Nitrox diver. The stupidity of using Nitrox with Titanium regulators is simply beyond the pale - this is forbidden by every manufacturer since a Nitrox-clean titanium first stage spontaneously ignited when used with Nitrox. Titanium is extremely dangerous in high ppO2 environments and should NEVER be used with ANY Nitrox mix.
I think in a few years time, with continued development in integrated diving gear.. coming from all the different dive manufacturers, I would bet that the diving community will be more open to adopting such "new fangled" things. The HUB is a good step in the right direction, but it definitely needs more development before its great.
The mini B was a step in the right direction - a simple, unpretentious bit of kit unashamedly aimed at inexperienced divers. The HUB is a joke, and not even a good one.
And at this point, I'd like to make a slight departure from the main theme of this page.
IMHO, based on what (s)he has written and the way it was written, this person is a bone-headed idiot whose strongly-voiced feelings remind me of the saying about opinions and assholes: Everybody's got one, and very few of them are worth listening to. In the case of this person, the link between their opinions and their anus is clearly apparent.
I am known to those who know me as a patient, level-headed and calm kinda guy.
Flames from the Internet directed at me trouble me about as much as a mosquito biting somebody else. ie, I ignore them completely, they don't bother me at all. A good summation of my opinion of them can be found HERE
However, occasionally, I do feel the urge to respond. In this particular case, the flaming article was actually directed at me for making a bunch of claims that I never actually made.
So I would like to say this about the person who wrote the criticism of my work.
This person is self-evidently a poorly-trained, poorly-practiced diver with low standards for both himself and the equipment he or she chooses to buy. The knowledge they have of the equipment they choose to buy is very obviously supplied entirely by glossy pamphlets containing words of very few syllables (and absolutely no apostrophes). Here we have a warm-water, non-deco diver who is incapable of diving without a hand-holding DM, and yet not only do they think they need an expensive dive computer, they think they need TWO, one of which has to be air-integrated. But of course, they have to have a backup gauge in case their precious AI computer goes on the fritz, because who knows how much gas they might use up to abort the dive and go to the surface. From two meters down.
A more extravagant waster of money is hard to imagine, but their choice of equipment speaks volumes for the type of dive shop they frequent. I'm sure that the dive guides and instructors this person has encountered in their diving life have all been extremely nice to them, and found themselves financially enriched by the meeting.
That any diver familiar with the term "Failure points" and what it can mean can still find the HUB worth of use beggars belief. That they can freely choose to increase the number of them moves them firmly to the status of "Darwin Award in Waiting".
I don't know who this person is. I do know that they are stupid, ignorant, and a bad diver. A more perfect example of why some divers decry the popularization of diving as an "Anyone can dive with a days training if they've got a wad of cash" activity does not exist.
What is worse, (s)he is proud of his/her ineptness, and prouder still of his/her poor choices in dive gear. If this person has made a single gear purchase that did not involve comparing price tags to make sure they bought the most expensive item, I will be very much surprised. His/her purpose for diving is not so much to safely enjoy the wonders of the underwater world, but to proudly boast of their superbly expensive dive gear. (S)he is very likely to be an inattentive buddy you absolutely cannot rely on, who finds actually being in the water something of an inconvenience as it gets their lovely expensive shiny equipment dirty and salty.
I am sure this diatribe will come as a shock to them, as this type of diver will habitually be a very selective listener: Negative comments from those less-expensively attired than themselves are written off as being provoked by jealousy of the wonderful gear and should be ignored. However, they pay close attention to the dive masters and instructors who approve highly of their choices, because, after all, they have a dive shop to run, which will stock lots of over-priced trinkets they're desperate to sell to such idiots.
Please, do not seek to emulate their attitude or the configuration. Buy your equipment because it is sensible, functional, and well-thought of by serious divers. Follow the advice of this person only if you want to follow them into the grave.